5* Characters effects on PVP/PVE

Options
dider152
dider152 Posts: 263
edited January 2016 in MPQ General Discussion
Do you guys think it's a good idea to sell my SS? I got him and stupidly leveled him to 270 and now I've noticed a change in PvE, even if I don't use him.

I got him during the event before last, meaning I had to wait for the Hood event before I could see the changes; I had a really difficult time with the last node (lvl 395) characters, and they were rated as "normal". Even the 4* DPD node which was "deadly" before I got SS is now just a "hard" rating.

I really hate how we were mislead to believe he wouldn't affect scaling when he so clearly does. My highest 4* is level 155, so the jump is noticeable. I want to keep SS through Anniversary Week just in case SS is used for something, but after that I was thinking of dumping him. Thoughts?


Mod Edit #3 : Changed Topic name now that we have multiple 5* characters.

Another moderator: this one might be good to stay in General a bit longer. I just merged in a new thread on the same topic and gave it a more general subject line. -DayvBang
«134567…19

Comments

  • TxMoose
    TxMoose Posts: 4,319 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    that sucks. what does the rest of your roster look like? do you have a solid group of 3*s at 166? no idea what to tell you. I'd like to know because I have 12 legs that I plan on opening in a couple of weeks and if i'll automatically start getting 395s, ugh, not looking forward to that. will still probably roster him but placing in 4* releases will immediately become very hard for t100, much less t20, that I'm struggling to sometime hit now.

    I'd like to hear from others with ss what their experiences are.
  • Malcrof
    Malcrof Posts: 5,971 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Honestly, with as hard as he is to get, and the fact that you have sunk ISO into him, i would keep him around.. you never know.. you may end up with another cover or 2 during the anniversary event^^

    BTW, what color cover do you have, if blueflag.png .do not sell!
  • itstime1234
    itstime1234 Posts: 369 Mover and Shaker
    Options
    Yes. He is bagsurfer. He cant do nothing but be a meat shield.

    icon_razz.gif
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Options
    itstime1234 wrote:
    Yes. He is bagsurfer. He cant do nothing but be a meat shield.

    icon_razz.gif
    You won the internet. LOLZ @ bagsurfer.

    Edit: I just told an Alliance mate of mine yesterday, who just got surfer, not to post him up in SIM. I purposely look for people's surfers in SIM just to take them down because they think he's undefeatable.
  • generalTsobot
    generalTsobot Posts: 65 Match Maker
    Options
    TxMoose wrote:
    that sucks. what does the rest of your roster look like? do you have a solid group of 3*s at 166? no idea what to tell you. I'd like to know because I have 12 legs that I plan on opening in a couple of weeks and if i'll automatically start getting 395s, ugh, not looking forward to that. will still probably roster him but placing in 4* releases will immediately become very hard for t100, much less t20, that I'm struggling to sometime hit now.

    I'd like to hear from others with ss what their experiences are.

    There are a bunch of us who are feeling the pain of fortunately/unfortunately having SS on an under-leveled roster. See the following threads for multiple people (including me) reporting their results:

    viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32590&start=200#p416672
    viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33236#p418868

    SS affects not only PVE but PVP too. PVP is arguably the more painful for me, since it is borderline unplayable for me now. Now that I've entered into ISO Brotherhood since I posted that yesterday, I have more data to definitively say that SS is affecting starting levels in PVE. It doesn't make things impossible, per se, but markedly harder and wipeouts are more likely given that the rest of my roster has remained unchanged.

    The thing that throws matchmaking (PVP) and starting levels (PVE) off is that SS starts at level 255. This makes for a wide gulf between the top of my roster and all of the rest. If what tech support says is true -- that PVE starting levels look at the first three characters of your roster -- then anyone who doesn't already have nearly max-leveled 4*'s will feel the scaling effects of recruiting SS.

    For me personally, simply recruiting SS at his starting level 255 makes the "average level" of my first three characters jump a massive 53 levels (from 94 to 147). You can imagine what that's doing to my starting PVE node difficulty...

    I'm really hoping that D3 can come up with a solution; otherwise, this really hinders any sort of progression that players like me -- and anyone else who finds themselves in the same situation -- can make in the game going forward. It's a special sort of dark humor that recruiting the pinnacle of the game to your roster will break it and make it less fun.
  • Lopan15
    Lopan15 Posts: 225 Tile Toppler
    Options
    After adding SS to my roster I was seeing 370 lvl opponents in thick as thieves. Previous pve I was seeing 350ish max. I haven't joined brotherhood yet, but I upped my SS to 270 so I'll be interested to see if I'm seeing 395. My current max other than SS are a couple 170 4* and a bunch of 166 3*. I've been top 100 in pve so is it possible that the bump in opponents is due to doing "well" in previous pve?
  • generalTsobot
    generalTsobot Posts: 65 Match Maker
    Options
    Lopan15 wrote:
    After adding SS to my roster I was seeing 370 lvl opponents in thick as thieves. Previous pve I was seeing 350ish max. I haven't joined brotherhood yet, but I upped my SS to 270 so I'll be interested to see if I'm seeing 395. My current max other than SS are a couple 170 4* and a bunch of 166 3*. I've been top 100 in pve so is it possible that the bump in opponents is due to doing "well" in previous pve?

    Based on my ~350 days in the game, mainly focused on PVE and almost universally finishing T10 - T50, I don't think you can attribute that jump in scaling to exclusively "doing well". Do keep in mind that TaT can skew perspectives a little, as that one CMags/Hood node will show much higher levels than normal since it's a 3 vs. 2 battle.

    As a comparison, my otherwise level 94 roster is now giving me the Nigeria IV node in ISO-8 Brotherhood at level 150, but labeled as "Easy". Previously, I would have expected this node to be around level 120 or so, in order for it to be labeled "Easy".
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    This seems to be a real failing of the revised character design implemented for 5*s. I get that the devs wanted to make them usable at lower cover levels, which is a good plan. But the side effect is that a single cover silver surfer will still blow the doors off the max level of any roster that doesn't have maxed or near-maxed 4*s.

    That would be fine if the only way to get 5* covers required a 4* roster. But all those PVE legendary tokens are well within reach of anyone who can grind well in PVE. It was bound to create problems now that scaling is so heavily based on roster level.

    As for OP, despite everything stated above, I would NOT sell your SS. You have at least 1 level 155 4* on your roster, which suggests that you are at least some way along in your 3* transition. Assuming you have a well developed 3* roster, you are probably better off just gritting your teeth through the PVE scaling problems in the short term and focusing on 1k in PVP to build up your 4* bench.

    Selling SS now is a short term fix, but you will likely regret in the medium-to-long term, especially since the 4* transition is *supposed* to be speeding up.
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    downsouthman1 wrote:
    itstime1234 wrote:
    Yes. He is bagsurfer. He cant do nothing but be a meat shield.

    icon_razz.gif
    You won the internet. LOLZ @ bagsurfer.

    Edit: I just told an Alliance mate of mine yesterday, who just got surfer, not to post him up in SIM. I purposely look for people's surfers in SIM just to take them down because they think he's undefeatable.

    I saw someone in PvP the other week with a loaner 3*, Silver Surfer and a level 94 Wolverine. I looked at their roster and they had a handful of 3*s and a load of level 94 2*s.

    "Oh my sweet summer child..."

    Poor guy. He's just ruined his gameplay experience by getting Silver Surfer =/
  • babinro
    babinro Posts: 771 Critical Contributor
    Options
    Does anyone even have proof that deletion of your highest level character(s) will IMPROVE scaling?
    I'd hate to recommend deleting something as rare as SS just to see nothing change at all.
  • stowaway
    stowaway Posts: 501 Critical Contributor
    Options
    generalTsobot wrote:
    If what tech support says is true -- that PVE starting levels look at the first three characters of your roster -- then anyone who doesn't already have nearly max-leveled 4*'s will feel the scaling effects of recruiting SS.

    I think it's a huge bummer for people to get a "lucky" pull and suffer from it, like a corrupted wish. But I don't think this part is really true. For a core 3* player, the average PvE has at least one essential boosted to 260 (depending on where your 4* is at), and some others at 240. A 255 thrown in isn't going to make much difference.

    I wonder if this was a deliberate attempt to get people who have kept their characters under leveled to finally level them.
  • generalTsobot
    generalTsobot Posts: 65 Match Maker
    Options
    stowaway wrote:
    generalTsobot wrote:
    If what tech support says is true -- that PVE starting levels look at the first three characters of your roster -- then anyone who doesn't already have nearly max-leveled 4*'s will feel the scaling effects of recruiting SS.

    I think it's a huge bummer for people to get a "lucky" pull and suffer from it, like a corrupted wish. But I don't think this part is really true. For a core 3* player, the average PvE has at least one essential boosted to 260 (depending on where your 4* is at), and some others at 240. A 255 thrown in isn't going to make much difference.

    I wonder if this was a deliberate attempt to get people who have kept their characters under leveled to finally level them.

    I've been open about having a soft-capped level 94 roster, so that particular gulf in levels is partially my own doing (although I think players should be able to play however they choose). I'm fortunate to be in a position where I could spend ISO to raise up my entire roster to make things more even, but not everyone who was "lucky" enough to pull SS can do this.

    Virtually anyone can grind PVE to earn a legendary token, but not everyone who pulls SS can or will benefit from having him. This is a big shift from every other * starting level from before. Even 4*'s start at a mere level 70, so that it doesn't have a huge effect on a newer player's scaling/matchmaking experience.

    I do think the problem is actually worse in PVP. See Dragon_Nexus's example.

    That leads me to believe that forcing people to level was not a deliberate design choice on D3's part. My guess is that D3 started 5*'s at level 255 so that we wouldn't be overwhelmed by the amount of ISO needed to max them. However, the result is an overall diminished experience for those whose rosters aren't "ready" for them.

    What's better for the overall game -- starting 5*'s at a lower level (say, 150) and requiring boatloads of ISO to max them (which perhaps only whales or the luckiest of token draws could ever hope to do); or, starting 5*'s at 255 and having a negative impact on all but those who are at the top of the food chain (yet, you're not limiting the ability to earn 5*'s to only these rosters)?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Options
    If scaling is that much of an issue, I'd just stick to PVP for a bit. Isn't scaling also based on previous PVE performances? So if you were to tank a couple of PVE's, wouldn't scaling go down enough to at least get a 4 close?

    I would suggest against getting rid of SS, maybe try building a team around him and use him as a meat shield.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    babinro wrote:
    Does anyone even have proof that deletion of your highest level character(s) will IMPROVE scaling?
    I'd hate to recommend deleting something as rare as SS just to see nothing change at all.


    Great point! Is anyone willing to be the guinea pig?
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Vhailorx wrote:
    babinro wrote:
    Does anyone even have proof that deletion of your highest level character(s) will IMPROVE scaling?
    I'd hate to recommend deleting something as rare as SS just to see nothing change at all.


    Great point! Is anyone willing to be the guinea pig?
    According to CS, altering your roster mid event will not recalibrate your starting levels


    A alliance mate received this from CS recently:

    When entering a PvE event or sub-event for the first time, the game will review your current Roster (including buffs/restrictions), and the difficulty of each mission will be based on the strength of your top three characters. Many (but not all) of the nodes in the easier missions are capped at a fairly low level, which means they appear artificially low to a high level team; somewhere between 30-50 usually. Then, when you make the jump to harder missions, it looks really stark because you are jumping up to the level you should be playing against, without the caps.

    The matchmaking system for the PvP events does its best to pair you with appropriate opponents, which is not necessarily the player you are skipping matches to find. The intended function of the skip feature is to allow players to find favorable matches or avoid unfavorable ones. Keep in mind that one of the major factors that determine which opponents you're paired with is your personal rank in the event, but will still keep an attempt to find other teams with a similar strength based on the top three characters in your Roster.

    As the Silver Surfer (Skyrider) character is level 255 when obtained with the possibility of reaching level 270 with its first Comic Cover applied, it is essentially considered to be the strength of a maxed out 4 Star character in your Roster, and the balancing for PvE events and the Matchmaking system for PvE events will take this into consideration when creating the difficulty for each mission and the matchmaking system for PvP events will take this into consideration when searching for an opponent in these events. As such, with a Silver Surfer (Skyrider) in your Roster, it will boost the difficulty you experience you encounter in PvE and PvP events due to its level compared to the rest of your roster.

    Please keep in mind that if you enter an event for the first time with a Roster, and then quickly make changes, that event is not going to re-calibrate to the new Roster.
  • SirLanik
    SirLanik Posts: 345 Mover and Shaker
    Options
    The "hard" and "deadly" don't mean anything- they are just a rough comparison of enemy level to your roster average level.

    Your roster average level does not determine PVE scaling.

    Everyone else had massively insane scaling on that node too. I beat the 395 enemy with my Loki (boosted to 200) and then two others that were 140 and 130.

    So, short answer- selling Silver Surfer will NOT reduce your PVE scaling. I would not personally recommend selling him, as he's an incredibly valuable tank that will only get better with time. I have one now with blue ability, and it's hilarious to true heal for about 3k.
  • STOPTHIS
    STOPTHIS Posts: 781 Critical Contributor
    Options
    I already only hope for 4*s when opening a Legendary token, but anecdotes like this worry me. It makes me wish we could "save" certain covers until needed. We got a vault, why not a bank? Put a limit on how many we could bank, obviously, but save us some headaches when it comes to scaling.
  • SnagglePuss
    SnagglePuss Posts: 702 Critical Contributor
    Options
    SirLanik wrote:
    The "hard" and "deadly" don't mean anything- they are just a rough comparison of enemy level to your roster average level.

    Your roster average level does not determine PVE scaling.

    It's a combination between performance and roster, this has been proven many times.

    I can't find it now but I'm pretty sure that a few low lvl people have ditched 4*s and had their scaling revert back to previous levels.... Though that may have just been talk and not actually done.
  • Pylgrim
    Pylgrim Posts: 2,296 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    fmftint wrote:
    Vhailorx wrote:
    babinro wrote:
    Does anyone even have proof that deletion of your highest level character(s) will IMPROVE scaling?
    I'd hate to recommend deleting something as rare as SS just to see nothing change at all.


    Great point! Is anyone willing to be the guinea pig?
    According to CS, altering your roster mid event will not recalibrate your starting levels


    A alliance mate received this from CS recently:

    When entering a PvE event or sub-event for the first time, the game will review your current Roster (including buffs/restrictions), and the difficulty of each mission will be based on the strength of your top three characters. Many (but not all) of the nodes in the easier missions are capped at a fairly low level, which means they appear artificially low to a high level team; somewhere between 30-50 usually. Then, when you make the jump to harder missions, it looks really stark because you are jumping up to the level you should be playing against, without the caps.

    The matchmaking system for the PvP events does its best to pair you with appropriate opponents, which is not necessarily the player you are skipping matches to find. The intended function of the skip feature is to allow players to find favorable matches or avoid unfavorable ones. Keep in mind that one of the major factors that determine which opponents you're paired with is your personal rank in the event, but will still keep an attempt to find other teams with a similar strength based on the top three characters in your Roster.

    As the Silver Surfer (Skyrider) character is level 255 when obtained with the possibility of reaching level 270 with its first Comic Cover applied, it is essentially considered to be the strength of a maxed out 4 Star character in your Roster, and the balancing for PvE events and the Matchmaking system for PvE events will take this into consideration when creating the difficulty for each mission and the matchmaking system for PvP events will take this into consideration when searching for an opponent in these events. As such, with a Silver Surfer (Skyrider) in your Roster, it will boost the difficulty you experience you encounter in PvE and PvP events due to its level compared to the rest of your roster.

    Please keep in mind that if you enter an event for the first time with a Roster, and then quickly make changes, that event is not going to re-calibrate to the new Roster.

    In other words, this is definite confirmation that people in 2* land should not keep their SS. For people in 3* land it's ok because the system takes in account buffs, so if you have level 166 characters, they will be buffed to 240 anyway (290 for the featured one), so having a 255 will not increase things noticeably.
  • Raffoon
    Raffoon Posts: 884
    Options
    Pylgrim wrote:
    fmftint wrote:
    Vhailorx wrote:
    babinro wrote:
    Does anyone even have proof that deletion of your highest level character(s) will IMPROVE scaling?
    I'd hate to recommend deleting something as rare as SS just to see nothing change at all.


    Great point! Is anyone willing to be the guinea pig?
    According to CS, altering your roster mid event will not recalibrate your starting levels


    A alliance mate received this from CS recently:

    When entering a PvE event or sub-event for the first time, the game will review your current Roster (including buffs/restrictions), and the difficulty of each mission will be based on the strength of your top three characters. Many (but not all) of the nodes in the easier missions are capped at a fairly low level, which means they appear artificially low to a high level team; somewhere between 30-50 usually. Then, when you make the jump to harder missions, it looks really stark because you are jumping up to the level you should be playing against, without the caps.

    The matchmaking system for the PvP events does its best to pair you with appropriate opponents, which is not necessarily the player you are skipping matches to find. The intended function of the skip feature is to allow players to find favorable matches or avoid unfavorable ones. Keep in mind that one of the major factors that determine which opponents you're paired with is your personal rank in the event, but will still keep an attempt to find other teams with a similar strength based on the top three characters in your Roster.

    As the Silver Surfer (Skyrider) character is level 255 when obtained with the possibility of reaching level 270 with its first Comic Cover applied, it is essentially considered to be the strength of a maxed out 4 Star character in your Roster, and the balancing for PvE events and the Matchmaking system for PvE events will take this into consideration when creating the difficulty for each mission and the matchmaking system for PvP events will take this into consideration when searching for an opponent in these events. As such, with a Silver Surfer (Skyrider) in your Roster, it will boost the difficulty you experience you encounter in PvE and PvP events due to its level compared to the rest of your roster.

    Please keep in mind that if you enter an event for the first time with a Roster, and then quickly make changes, that event is not going to re-calibrate to the new Roster.

    In other words, this is definite confirmation that people in 2* land should not keep their SS. For people in 3* land it's ok because the system takes in account buffs, so if you have level 166 characters, they will be buffed to 240 anyway (290 for the featured one), so having a 255 will not increase things noticeably.

    Wait..... the bigger thing here is that they just explicitly confirmed PVE scaling based on roster strength. icon_eek.gif (as opposed to only being based on performance)

Categories