MMR at 450 (and lack of diversity)

SnowcaTT · June 2016

Hi again! It's me - remember last month, where I commented on MMR from 300-400?
viewtopic.php?t=44648&p=524396
This is sort of a follow-up, sort of a warning to players, and sort of a plea to D3.

At the end of the season and through the off-season I maxed Phoenix to 450, and now I'm seeing the new PVP MMR. Let's get right to the events so far, and what I've found. I have tracked every single node I've seen; I'm leaving none out after events have been open for half an hour.

Shield Sim: running 450 Phoenix (abbreviating to PH here), 292 HB, 272 Rhulk
Opening nodes:

360 OML, champed HB, champed Jean
405 OML, champed Cyc, champed Jean
451 OML, champed Rhulk, Champed Ice
Champed HB, champed Ice, Champed DPXF (no 5*!)
Champed DPXF, Champed Cyc, Champed XF (no 5*!)

hit by:

373 OML, champed SS, 390 PH
435 OML, Champed PH, Champed DPXF
Champed OML, Champed SS, 420 PH
Champed OML, Champed SS, 420 PH
390 OML, 405 SS, Champed PX
Champed OML, Champed PH, Champed DPXF

found nodes:

390 OML, 420 PH, champed Ice
405 OML, 265(!) Jean, champed SW (3*!)
350 OML, champed Jean, champed Cyc
390 OML, champed Carnage, champed X-23
390 PH, 360 BSSM, 229(!) XF
350 OML, Champed JG, Champed HB
375 OML, Champed JG, 250 Nova
360 OML, Champed HB, Champed Rhulk
405 OML, 405 PH, champed DPXF
342 OML, Champed DPXF, Champed X23
420 OML, Champed Ice, Champed IM (3*!)
390 OML, Champed JG, Champed SW (3*!)
405 OML, Champed Rhulk, Champed SW
330 OML, Champed JG, Champed Cyc
360 OML, 360 JG, Champed DPXF
360 OML, champed JG, champed HB
375 OML, 435 PH, Champed DPXF
423 OML, 420 PH, Champed DPXF
360 OML, 330 PH, 375 SS
390 OML, 353 PH, Champed HB
Champed PH, Champed PX, champed SW (3*!)
Champed OML, Champed HB, Champed JG
375 PH, Champed Thor, champed Hood (3*!)
Champed HB, Champed JG, Champed Rhulk (no 5*!)
Champed DPXF, Champed XF, Champed Cyc (no 5*!)
Champed HB, Champed JG, Champed Rhulk (no 5*!)
345 OML, 360 PH, Champed DPXF
435 OML, Champed HB, Champed JG
343 SS (!), Champed HB, Champed JG
375 OML, Champed Rhulk, Champed Cyc
360 OML, 360 PH, 272 DPXF
Champed Rhulk, Champed HB, Champed JG (no 5*!)
360 OML, Champed HB, Champed Ant
Champed OML, Champed Cyc, Champed DPXF
342 OML, Champed DPXF, Champed X23
375 OML, Champed HB, Champed GT
405 OML, Champed Rhulk, Champed SW (3*!)
420 OML, Champe Rhulk, Champed GT
342 OML, Champed DPXF, Champed X23
375 OML, 435 PH, Champed DPXF
420 OML, Champed JG, Champed HB
360 OML, 375 PH, 281 Rhulk
360 OML, 360 PH, Champed DPXF
435 PH, Champed Rhulk, Champed Thing
360 OML, Champed JG, Champed HB
450 OML, Champed Ice, Champed Hood (3*!)
344 PH, Champed Thing, Champed GR
339 PH, 345 SS, Champed XF
Champed OML, Champed Cyc, Champed DPXF
330 OML, 390 PH, Champed SW (3*!)
360 OML, Champed DPXF, Champed Ice
375 OML, Champed GT, Champed IM (3*!)
390 OML, Champed DPXF, champed Quake
Champed Rhulk, Champed HB, Champed Venom (no 5*!)
360 OML, champed DPXF, champed Rhulk
405 OML, champed DPXF, champed Thing
330 OML, 390 PH, Champed SW (3*!)
420 OML, Champed DPXF, Champed X23
390 OML, Champed DPXF, champed Quake
360 OML, Champed JG, champed cyc
390 PH, Champed HB, 152 XF (!)

21 Guns (S4, 450 PH, Champ/buffed Thor)
Ran seeds/low levels coming from off-season MMR to #1 (300)
attacked by:

420 OML, 405 PH
Champ PH, 420 SS
Champ OML, champ PH
415 OML, Champ PH
390 OML, 435 PH
435 OML, Champ PH
435 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, 420 PH
435 OML, 420 PH
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
420 OML, 390 PH
390 OML, champ/buffed Falcap
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
375 OML, 420 PH
Champ OML, champ PH
Champ OML, Champ SS
Champed PH, champed SS
Champed PH, 420 SS (double-tapped)
Champed OML, champed PH (double-tapped)
435 OML, champed PH
420 OML, 435 BSSM
420 PH, champed Rhulk

found nodes:

390 OML, 435 PH
420 OML, Champed Cyc.
420 PH, Champ/buffed Nova
435 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
405 OML, champ JG
435 OML, champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, 405 PH
360 OML, 365 PH
435 PH, champ/buffed thor
420 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
360 OML, 285 champ Ice
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, 410 PH
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 PH, Champed Rhulk
415 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
435 SS (!), Champed JG
390 OML, Rhulk
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed PH, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, Champ/buffed Falcap (!)
375 OML, 375 PH
415 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
375 OML, Champed JG
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
375 OML, Champed DPXF
390 PH, Champ/buffed Thor
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
405 OML, champ PX
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
360 OML, 390 PH
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
365 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, Champ DPXF
420 OML, champ IF (!)
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champ OML, Champ/buffed Thor
345 OML, 405 SS
390 OML, Champ HB
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, Champ DPXF
435 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
406 OML, Champed JG
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
435 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, Champ DPXF
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
420 PH, Champ/buffed Thor
420 PH, champed Rhulk
345 OML, 400 SS
375 OML, 420 PH
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
375 OML, 420 PH
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
405 OML, Champ JG
406 OML, Champ JG
375 OML, 420 PH
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
champ OML, Champ/buffed Thor
champ OML, Champ/buffed Thor
406 OML, Champ JG
375 OML, 380 PH
435 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champ OML, Champ/buffed Thor
406 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
435 OML, Champ DPXF
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
435 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
420 PH, Champ/buffed Nova
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
420 PH, Champ/buffed Thor
375 OML, 380 PH
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
420 OML, champed DPXF
420 PH, champed/boosted Patch (3*!)

Cover Squirrel (S1, 450 PH, Champ/buffed Thor)
(ran seeds + 3*'s to 300 points and 1st)
Attacked by:

390 OML, 420 PH/435 SS/champed-buffed Thor? (won, couldn't tell)
Champed OML, 435 PH (double-tapped)
420 OML, 405 PH
420 OML, Champed PH (double-tapped)
420 OML, Champed PH
Champed OML, Champed HB
420 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
420 OML, 420 PH
390 OML, Champ/buffed Falcap
420 OML, champ SS
375 OML, Champ PH
390 OML, 420 PH
375 OML, 420 PH
Champed OML, Champed PH
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
CHamped OML, 405 PH

found nodes:

390 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, Champ/buffed falcap
390 SS (!), Champed SW (3*!)
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
420 OML, Champed DPXF
360 OML, 365 Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, champed PH
Champed OML, Champed DPXF
Champed OML, champed SS
Champed OML, champed SS
Champed OML, Champed PH
Champed OML, Champed PH
420 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
420 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
435 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
355 OML, 409 PH
420 PH, Champed DPXF
390 OML, 390 PH
420 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, 390 PH
390 OML, champ/buffed Falcap
405 OML, 420 PH
420 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
330 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
420 OML, 420 PH
405 OML, Champed HB
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
360 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, Champed Rhulk
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
375 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
330 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, Champed Cyc
Champed OML, Champed Rhulk
420 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
435 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
435 PH, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed SS (!), Champed DPXF
360 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
405 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
330 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
435 PH, Champ/buffed Thor
Champed OML, Champ/buffed Thor
420 OML, 420 PH
420 OML, Champ/buffed Thor
390 OML, 420 PH

I was going to run this data through a whole season...but I think most of two events and Shield Simulator give enough of an idea.

Findings:
Total seen nodes: 252
Total nodes seen without OML: 36 (OML in 85% of all seen nodes)
Total times Silver Surfer seen: 15 (mostly champed)
Total 3*'s seen: 12
Nodes without a 5*: five (all in Sim outside of early seed runners)
Nodes with less than a 360 5*: 7 (two total seen outside of Sim)

Initial thoughts:
Perhaps you see a theme in those nodes!
THIS IS DIVERSITY? EIGHTY-FIVE PERCENT OF NODES I SEE HAVE THE SAME CHARACTER?
Perhaps..just perhaps...that character is way, way overpowered and needs a nerf.
Considering there is an older 5* that I saw very, very few times (needs a buff?)
And considering I often saw folks running that OP character at low level while running 4*'s over other equivalent leveled 5*'s to their OP one.

Other thoughts:
I easily hit 1300's when I was between 375-425. No more of that!
Wait...what? So I -could- advance in the game when I didn't level my character.
But now I've leveled my character...and I'll never be able to advance in the game. Great.
RNG-only advancement is....just the worst.
Don't know how much longer I'll play the game with it looking like this. Honestly, why bother?
Really? The end-game plan is make there be no reason to continue to play the game?
Hopefully you have The Only Character That Matters, otherwise you are hosed.
If you have The Only Character That Matters and DPXF, you might do ok. Otherwise:
DO NOT GO TO 450 UNLESS YOU HAVE TWO 5*'s. Period.
DO NOT GO TO 450 IF YOU EVER WANT TO HAVE 4*'s BE RELEVANT AGAIN.
DO NOT GO TO 450 IF YOU WILL BE BORED BY SEEING THE SAME CHARACTER ALMOST EVERY NODE.

tanis3303 · June 2016

SnowcaTT wrote:

Don't know how much longer I'll play the game with it looking like this. Honestly, why bother?

I came to this realization myself just yesterday. I opened 2 Classic tokens with CP and one Latest LT from a DDQ win...my first pull was an Old Man Logan! It was black. My 8th black. As I sold it for a measly 2,000 ISO, I realized I wasn't even all that sad about it. Would I have preferred a red or yellow? Of course! But then I asked myself: "Why?" Am I going to level him past 360? Not a chance. Why you ask? See Snow's post. Doesn't sound like fun, so why would I do it? Other than pulling a needed 5* cover, the last meaningful thing I did to advance my roster was to champ 4* Venom. I've used him exactly twice. Soooooo...that was a waste of resources...

So if leveling 4*s is pointless, and leveling 5*s ruins the game experience...........why am I playing? This is my existential crisis in this game right now, and I don't think there's an answer. IMHO, the devs shot themselves in the foot by releasing the 5* tier before there was any real, meaningful 4* content, and now there's no going back. Oh, I know! I can re-champ all my 2*s!!

Smoke and mirrors to distract from the real problems, and I'm not falling for it. My foot's off the gas, and when you start slowing down in a game like this, you might as well stop altogether...we'll see how I feel after another season, because at the end of the day, I do like the game's bones. But the way its going now, it just seems pointless...

Cunneryn · June 2016

To be honest, OML is seen at every level in pvp. I have achamped 3 star roster, working slowly on my 4 stars, but I still see OML in almost all matches (though I have no stats to show).

Even if he has 1 or two covers and unleveled, he can wreck my team by himself if I'm unlucky. And he's in my nodes ALL THE TIME!!

AE_Fios · June 2016

I'm soft capping my 5*s around 350 or so. I don't really want to make 97% of my roster irrelevant. At 345 I can still use the 4*s and a handful of the 3*s. I even see 3* teams during my initial climb. Any more than that and I think the scale will tip. Anyone else have any experience with this?

TimGunn · June 2016

i'm sure the devs have all this data, but thanks for sharing with everyone else!

TxMoose · June 2016

this is why I'm glad my covers took my OML to 405 and no further. and now I'm backing up and champing all my 3s and then will champ all the 2s I don't have. then I can decide what to do from there. I may pause at some point if quake or nova have their last covers come in (but I'm not opening tokens for a long while, so that's unlikely unless the right one pops up at pvp 1K), and i'll probably take some characters up to ddq day level towards the end of each cycle. was told by several to not exceed 405 with your 1 leveled 5* until you can champ 2 (and best if that 2nd isn't ss). I think I'm done leveling OML for at least 6 months.

FYI AE - at 405 I see mostly OML/other teams. but sometimes see a boosted 4* team. this week I've even seen 4thor/im40 teams and maybe a witch/phx team (mostly OML/4thor this week). no other 3s in pvp events. I get plenty of 3s in shield simulator, but mainly only when I put a 3* team out there. somehow I managed to save a node early that I could beat with a 3* team. when its out, the hits that come in are mainly 3*s (we know 5* rosters don't see it, but I haven't figured out why everyone can see bakers - maybe its different in simulator?). climb on retals with whatever you like, but save a node. finish your climb with a 3* team. get beat down. rinse/repeat. simulator = iso farm for when you want a pve break.

658 · June 2016

If they nerf OML, a lot of people would get refunds through itunes and google play. The people in the buy groups have spent so much, and refunds are so easy to get. It would be really dangerous for D3 to do that. I know a few people who've gotten big refunds already. It would also be a pretty **** thing to do to the people that spent the most.

Then again, diversity is a big issue, you're right. D3 really backed themselves into the corner on this one. I assume we'll see an 5* OML killer soon, whatever that would look like. In the interim, perhaps they should make a 4* mega support character, a la IM40, that plays great with other 5s than OML.

Malcrof · June 2016

With more 5*s released and more coming, the diversity will happen in time, forever it was XFW/4Thor everywhere. If you decide to move to the 5* tier, you will fight 5*s. Gobby/IM is the next 5* power combo, and having fought it a couple times, i will gladly fight OML/PNX lol.

KGB · June 2016

Cunneryn wrote:

To be honest, OML is seen at every level in pvp. I have achamped 3 star roster, working slowly on my 4 stars, but I still see OML in almost all matches (though I have no stats to show).

Even if he has 1 or two covers and unleveled, he can wreck my team by himself if I'm unlucky. And he's in my nodes ALL THE TIME!!

I see exactly the same and my 3* roster is only around L110ish. Even a 1 yellow cover OML will wreck my team through match damage.

I suspect part of the problem Snowcatt is seeing is because he's on the bleeding edge character wise. Only .1% of the players probably have characters like he does so he's only going to see a very small subset. There is also only 6 5* characters and 2 of those were just released and won't be well covered. Maybe in 8 months when there are 10+ 5* characters there will be more roster diversity.

The change really needed in PvP is to treat 5* characters as essentials. So if you put one in your lineup you can only face other teams that have at least one 5*. If you select a 4* (and below) lineup you'll be matched against 4* and below. Then players can use their rosters again.

KGB

Pants1000 · June 2016

One solution would be to release 15-20 more 5 stars, then you'd have diversity. But I already see plenty of complaints that they're releasing characters too fast. Would it be good if they stopped releasing 4's and all new characters were 5's?

Another solution would be to have events with restrictions like DDQ, maybe running simultaneously. I'd be fine with some events that locked out 5 stars, even though I love my OML. And events that locked out all 4 and 5 stars would let players without maxed 4 stars seriously compete.

SnowcaTT · June 2016

I've been wondering why we don't have two different PVP's for a long time - if there is no place for me to use 4*'s in the game, why bother releasing them and having them?

Also: it was really frustrating to see 3*'s at my same ranking in PVP when I had the 350 character. Now that it's 450...how is that remotely fair to have the same players competing in the same brackets for the same rewards...when you can't see them due to MMR?

Separate PVP's now please!

Piro_plock · June 2016

That's why I like Sharp Dressed - no OML equals more diversity, lol.

revskip · June 2016

SnowcaTT wrote:

I've been wondering why we don't have two different PVP's for a long time - if there is no place for me to use 4*'s in the game, why bother releasing them and having them?

Also: it was really frustrating to see 3*'s at my same ranking in PVP when I had the 350 character. Now that it's 450...how is that remotely fair to have the same players competing in the same brackets for the same rewards...when you can't see them due to MMR?

Separate PVP's now please!

You can't see them and they aren't taking any points from you. You are kind of already in separate PVPs. The low 3*s are getting crushed by the max 3*s and the 4* teams along with any well covered but underleveled 5* teams. Anyone who manages to shield hop well with a 3* team deserves the rewards.

I like the idea posted up above as it pertains to 5*s, lock them in or out. If you use a 5* only teams with a 5* can fight you.

Edit: Also what mpqr7 said below needs to be tied to that. If you are using 5*s you should be getting better rewards in a system that locks them in and out.

mpqr7 · June 2016

As always, if the battles are tougher, the rewards should be better. If someone has to fight high level 5*s, they should get more ISO as a result of those battles.

Fingers crossed that I may get a

soon, giving me all three of her colors and bringing her to 8 covers, so I can raise her to lv 375. Which will be cool. But yeah, I'm not looking forward to then having severly limited choices for my pvp opponents. They are already pretty limited as it is.

Linkster79 · June 2016

658 wrote:

If they nerf OML, a lot of people would get refunds through itunes and google play. The people in the buy groups have spent so much, and refunds are so easy to get. It would be really dangerous for D3 to do that. I know a few people who've gotten big refunds already. It would also be a pretty **** thing to do to the people that spent the most.

Then again, diversity is a big issue, you're right. D3 really backed themselves into the corner on this one. I assume we'll see an 5* OML killer soon, whatever that would look like. In the interim, perhaps they should make a 4* mega support character, a la IM40, that plays great with other 5s than OML.

Players cannot purchase Legendary Tokens or Command Points, Hero Points are no longer being used for cover purchases so what exactly would they be asking for a refund for? The bonus FREE command points from being part of a buyer's club?

Back to the OP's point there is no true progress in the game, as soon as you reach 1 milestone all you can see is the next one in the distance and when that is reached you realise it looks exactly like the last one.

PeterGibbons316 · June 2016

SnowcaTT wrote:

I've been wondering why we don't have two different PVP's for a long time - if there is no place for me to use 4*'s in the game, why bother releasing them and having them?

Also: it was really frustrating to see 3*'s at my same ranking in PVP when I had the 350 character. Now that it's 450...how is that remotely fair to have the same players competing in the same brackets for the same rewards...when you can't see them due to MMR?

Separate PVP's now please!

It's not COMPLETELY separated though. For me the initial climb is awful - especially with PH rather than OML. I run a 390 OML with a 453 PH, and just the other day wiped to a 390 PH/450 OML. OML is really just that much better - especially if the claws come out. I mean, I still win probably 90% of my battles against two maxed 5*s, but I typically go through every last one of my health packs climbing to 800 (where prior to 5* MMR I could get there with just a handful).

But once I get to 800 and especially 1000 MMR opens up and I can farm 4* teams for ISO and low points with little to no fear of retaliation. And even though those maxed 5* teams are out there, they would rather farm these same teams too than bother with me. So I can usually float over 800, and actively play in this 1000-1200 range for most of the event if I don't want to shield. This is the biggest benefit of having a maxed 5* IMO (or at least one that isn't SS). Previously every battle over 1000 was rushed to finish quickly and shield before the 5* hits came in. Now I can relax and have fun up there.

I do agree that high end PvP revolves entirely around OML, and if you don't have 7+ covers for him you are probably going to have a pretty tough time in 5* MMR. Unless maybe you have maxed GG that can make use of black/yellow denial to keep those claws from popping, because letting those claws pop is going to wreck your day.

658 · June 2016

Linkster79 wrote:

Players cannot purchase Legendary Tokens or Command Points, Hero Points are no longer being used for cover purchases so what exactly would they be asking for a refund for? The bonus FREE command points from being part of a buyer's club?

Itunes and Google Play don't care. They don't look into it deeply.

* Definitely not advocating people requesting refunds if there is a nerf. Just saying they are easy to get and it's a risk for D3.

Bowgentle · June 2016

So championing a 5* char gives you nodes against high level 5* enemies.
Who would have thought.

Next up: there's not enough ISO in the game.

SnowcaTT · June 2016

Bowgentle wrote:

So championing a 5* char gives you nodes against high level 5* enemies.
Who would have thought.

Next up: there's not enough ISO in the game.

I certainly wasn't trying to make it the "oh woe, I fight similar opponents". You mostly should...especially dependent on where you are ranked in the event (T100 should face similar T100, for example).

But when you are in 3* land, you see lots of 2*. When you are in 4* land, you see lots of 3*. 5* land....and 4*'s suddenly no longer exist?

It's just another example that the 5*'s were way to far beyond 4*'s...that you "should" use six cover 5* over 13 cover maxed 4*.

Edit - it's also not "you have to fight against high level 5* enemies". It's "you have to fight against a SPECIFIC high level 5* enemy....every single time. Hope you have your own copy!"

ClydeFrog76 · June 2016

We all knew it, but this is the greatest confirmation yet: They done broke the game.

And they really have no way out of the hole they've dug themselves.

Old Man Logan Quest.

Catchy!

Jabrony_Geoff · June 2016

tanis3303 wrote:

SnowcaTT wrote:

Don't know how much longer I'll play the game with it looking like this. Honestly, why bother?

So if leveling 4*s is pointless, and leveling 5*s ruins the game experience...........why am I playing? This is my existential crisis in this game right now, and I don't think there's an answer. IMHO, the devs shot themselves in the foot by releasing the 5* tier before there was any real, meaningful 4* content, and now there's no going back. Oh, I know! I can re-champ all my 2*s!! Smoke and mirrors to distract from the real problems, and I'm not falling for it. My foot's off the gas, and when you start slowing down in a game like this, you might as well stop altogether...we'll see how I feel after another season, because at the end of the day, I do like the game's bones. But the way its going now, it just seems pointless...

Interesting post, I think every person playing mpq should read this. You guys have the best rosters and yet you are not happy.

MMR at 450 (and lack of diversity)

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