Cheaters on tournaments ?

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Jocrash
Jocrash Posts: 7 Just Dropped In
edited January 2017 in MPQ Suggestions and Feedback
Hi guys,

First of all, i will maybe do some mistakes since i'm french. Sorry about that.

So, i'm playing for almost 4 months now, and i think there are some cheaters, maybe i am wrong but...
Let me explain, in story mode event, some people can have more than 1000 point over me even when i do 7 times each fight... I don't get how it can be possible... ? Did i miss something ?

Thanks for your answers.
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Comments

  • Skrofa
    Skrofa Posts: 388 Mover and Shaker
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    It is all a matter of when and how fast you do your clears.
    As I understand it there are three steps.

    1. Do every node x4. Preferably, complete the x4 on the highest point ones first.

    2. After about 8(?) Hours do the 5th clear.

    3. Do number 6 as late as possible before the sub expires.

    Talking about 24h subs of course. 48h are a bit different
  • Jocrash
    Jocrash Posts: 7 Just Dropped In
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    It's almost what i'm doing. When i'm doing them 7 times, each fight give me only between 1 and 10 points each. So i don't get how people can have 1000 points over me. (And i'm talking about 24h events)

    Usually, i do them 4 times in a row when the event is released, then i do the 5th time before i sleep, and the 6th time the tommorow morning before the end.
  • Pongie
    Pongie Posts: 1,410 Chairperson of the Boards
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    You're doing the 5-7th clear too early. This has to be done at the end. The earlier you do the 5th clear, the less points you get for that clear (as well as subsequent clears)
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Pongie wrote:
    You're doing the 5-7th clear too early. This has to be done at the end. The earlier you do the 5th clear, the less points you get for that clear (as well as subsequent clears)
    This. You want to do the initial clears as fast as possible (high Point nodes first), and the final clears as late as possible (low Point nodes first).
    for truly optimal Points you want to leave just enough time to do a seventh playthrough and mop up the remaining Points once you have all the green checkmarks.
  • Jocrash
    Jocrash Posts: 7 Just Dropped In
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    Ok then, didn't expect that it will do a so big difference to do the 6th time few hours earlier.
    So should i also do the 5th time the tomorrow morning ? (My event is released at 1:00 pm)
  • Skrofa
    Skrofa Posts: 388 Mover and Shaker
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    Let's talk time. 24h sub
    You start at 12 oclock sharp. Let's say you finish at 1. 23h left on the clock.
    I assume you want to do the fifth at 11,5h (right in half that is.) And then, i don't know, around 11:30 do your sixth?

    Someone better at this than me, please confirm?
  • FaustianDeal
    FaustianDeal Posts: 760 Critical Contributor
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    Let's assume there was a PVE mission that only had 1 node... and it was worth 100 points. 'Optimal' play would be to hit it 4 times immediately, go away till the mission is nearly over, then come back and do the match 3 more times.

    Your best 'start' for this node:
    hit it 4 times as fast as you can.
    100/100/100/100. This will get you 400 points for so far.

    The node now has lost 1/3 of its value and has a 24 hour timer to get back to 'full points'. Your best outcome here would be to go away for nearly 24 hours (as the mission is about to end).

    The node has come back to full points, and you are able to hit it 3 more times for points.. each hit removes 1/3 of the full point value, so you get:
    100/66.6/33.3 = total 200 additional possible points

    Your 'optimal' score for a 100 point node (in a 24 hour mission) is 600 points. or 6x the base value.

    If you are getting < 600 points for the node this is because you:
    1 - open slowly. The longer it takes to get the timer started (by completing 4 hits) the more points you miss out on. Let's say it takes you 8 hours to clear the fight 4 times.. now your points are:
    100/100/100/100/88.8/55.5/22.2 = 566.6 - you lost 33.3 points here.
    2 - overdoing it at the open. Let's say you accidentally do 5 hits on a node to start. Your points are now
    100/100/100/100/66.6/66.6/33.3 - you lost 33.3 points by accidentally hitting the node a 5th time.
    3 - starting too early at the end: Let's say you have plans and will miss the end of the sub so you play 8 hours early. The points you would earn here wind up looking the same as for example 1... so you lost 33.3 points by doing your finishing clears to early.

    But, let's say you found a way to do optimal clears on this node. 4 perfect hits at start that take 0 time, and 3 hits at the end that also take 0 time.. and you post a score of 600. But you still lost. What happened?

    Grinders!!!!
    There are people who will just hit that node *all* day. Their points look like this:
    The first 6 times they hit the fight their points look like this:

    100/100/100/100/66.6/33.3 - they hit the node 6 times and get 500 points.
    *BUT* - now they will continue to hit that node and only earn 1 point each time. As long as they are willing to hit that 1 node 101 times they will earn 601 points. They have exceeded the optimal value for the node if you play as designed/intended.

    But if that person is willing/able to do complete that fight 700 times in that 24 hour window they will finish the event with 1200 points. The doubled you, and you *played perfectly*.

    They aren't "cheating" they are just willing to give up way more of their time in order to win an extra cover for placement.
  • Pongie
    Pongie Posts: 1,410 Chairperson of the Boards
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    FaustianDeal wrote:
    But, let's say you found a way to do optimal clears on this node. 4 perfect hits at start that take 0 time, and 3 hits at the end that also take 0 time.. and you post a score of 600. But you still lost. What happened?

    Grinders!!!!
    There are people who will just hit that node *all* day.

    Very few people will be doing this. It is so much effort to catch up/overtake and doesn't always guarantee top placement. If you were slower on your 4x clears and grinds, then the faster players will naturally be gaining points on you every sub. Say you do farm the 1 point node and catch up after the first sub. You had better calculate enough buffer to cater for the gains the faster player will be making in subsequent subs during your farm. Unless of course you plan on farming 1 point nodes every single sub, all day long.

    Nodes in later subs are also worth more than earlier subs, so it's even more effort to make up for optimal points lost by farming. eg sub 1 node is 100 points and you lost 33.3 points by farming. That's 34 hits of the 1 point node before you actually benefit from subsequent hits. Over 30mins to catch up, and then hours for the gain. Come to second sub, the node is now 200 points, the lost will be 66.6 points. Now you have to spend over an hour just to make up the points before you see any gain.

    OP is already falling behind by thousands of points for doing the 5th-7th clears early. The next sub, the gap will have widen (since more points are available in later subs). This farming method is not feasible to catch up in this scenario. It will only be beneficial to differentiate your score with players who clear and grind at roughly the same speed as you. That is, if you are playing optimal already and only behind by ~100 points. Then farming for a couple of hours are more realistic.

    edit: for reference, those that top 1 every pve can easily finish their 4x under an hour and the same is true for the 5-7th clears at the end. They wont be grinding until there is only 60 mins left in the sub.
  • Megdar
    Megdar Posts: 133 Tile Toppler
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    Yes over the course of even only a 3 subs event, doing your 5th clear mid sub is enough to make you loose by 1k.

    If perfect is 60k point for the event, 1k miss is not that much.

    Like everyone said, you have to clear 4 right at sub start and then the 3 clears right a sub end. For 24 hours sub.

    For 48 hours sub, you must do a clear after 24h when the point are full. To be really optimal, you must even start the fight when 5min remain on the counter.

    So yes, on sub change, you do 3 clears then 4 clear, so 7 clears in one session.
  • keitterman
    keitterman Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
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    Can we all agree that this is the most stupid, asinine way to rank in a game ever?
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    keitterman wrote:
    Can we all agree that this is the most stupid, asinine way to rank in a game ever?
    No, that would be PVP.
  • Megdar
    Megdar Posts: 133 Tile Toppler
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    PVP ranking is perfect, every game in the world reward you for win and penalize you for loss.

    The problem is that you can lose game when already playing, this is the stupid thing. Again in every game you can only play one game at a time.

    When you play a game of versus, you should be the equivalent of shielded, and not lose point.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Megdar wrote:
    PVP ranking is perfect, every game in the world reward you for win and penalize you for loss.

    The problem is that you can lose game when already playing, this is the stupid thing. Again in every game you can only play one game at a time.

    When you play a game of versus, you should be the equivalent of shielded, and not lose point.
    Great.
    I'll cross 1200, then start a match.
    Never finish that until the PVP is over.
    Free eternal shield, yay!
  • stochasticism
    stochasticism Posts: 1,181 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I love how every time a player of <300 days doesn't win an event it's because someone is cheating, not because someone with more experience is doing it better.
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Most likely you're not clearing optimally.

    In PvE, you can do 4 clears of each node at full value. Once you hit the 4th clear, the value of the node drops - I think by 25%. The time starts (you can see how long in the upper left) indicating how much time it will take for the node to refresh to full value. Every time you clear that node, the value drops, and another 24 hr is added to the timer.

    For max points, you need to do your 4 clears of each node as close to the start time as possible. Then wait as long as you can to allow the points to refresh and clear 3-4 more until the nodes hit 1 pt.

    Your opponents aren't cheating. They're just timing their play better.
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
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    keitterman wrote:
    Can we all agree that this is the most stupid, asinine way to rank in a game ever?

    Once could argue that the previous system was slightly more stupid and asinine. Clear once then wait a few hours, clear again, wait, etc.

    The 4-clear-before-timer was supposed to equate to "play when you want". Instead it just shifted and condensed the windows for grinding. I don't generally partake. I do my 4 clears over a 4-5 hour period in the evening, and grab a few more in the morning if I've got the time. It's usually good for a T100 place, and I'm fine with that. I can't compete with people who can wake up in the dead of night for 3 hours of a tile matching. If they want it that much, they deserve it more than me.
  • keitterman
    keitterman Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
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    Calnexin wrote:
    keitterman wrote:
    Can we all agree that this is the most stupid, asinine way to rank in a game ever?

    Once could argue that the previous system was slightly more stupid and asinine. Clear once then wait a few hours, clear again, wait, etc.

    The 4-clear-before-timer was supposed to equate to "play when you want". Instead it just shifted and condensed the windows for grinding. I don't generally partake. I do my 4 clears over a 4-5 hour period in the evening, and grab a few more in the morning if I've got the time. It's usually good for a T100 place, and I'm fine with that. I can't compete with people who can wake up in the dead of night for 3 hours of a tile matching. If they want it that much, they deserve it more than me.

    I agree with your strategy, and that's what I do too.

    It's just frustrating that the "game" is to play the same 9 boards 4-6 times, faster than most do it.

    IMO they should let people pick how hard they want a pin, reward people for completing it at lvl X+c*0, X+C*1, X+C*2, ... , X+C*n, for all n's <=6 (yes, reward people all six items if hey clear it the first time at lvl x+C*6)

    Then ranking is just: Of a group of similarly rostered players, who completed the nodes at the highest total?

    PvE Done.

    I get to play a game for a reasonable amount of time, I have to come up with a strategy against each node to determine the best combo for as high a level as i can muster, it's strategic and thoughtful instead of race through the mundane. As a byproduct, the 5* scaling issue is also solved.

    Anyway, I've wasted enough time, I have to get back to clearing boards for ~1 point each
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Calnexin wrote:
    keitterman wrote:
    Can we all agree that this is the most stupid, asinine way to rank in a game ever?

    Once could argue that the previous system was slightly more stupid and asinine. Clear once then wait a few hours, clear again, wait, etc.

    The 4-clear-before-timer was supposed to equate to "play when you want". Instead it just shifted and condensed the windows for grinding. I don't generally partake. I do my 4 clears over a 4-5 hour period in the evening, and grab a few more in the morning if I've got the time. It's usually good for a T100 place, and I'm fine with that. I can't compete with people who can wake up in the dead of night for 3 hours of a tile matching. If they want it that much, they deserve it more than me.
    Jeez.
    Nobody who t5s PVE is losing sleep or grinding fir 3 hours.
    Pick an end time where you can do an end grind of 1 hour, plus initial grind of an hour.
    Done.
  • keitterman
    keitterman Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
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    Bowgentle wrote:
    Calnexin wrote:
    keitterman wrote:
    Can we all agree that this is the most stupid, asinine way to rank in a game ever?

    Once could argue that the previous system was slightly more stupid and asinine. Clear once then wait a few hours, clear again, wait, etc.

    The 4-clear-before-timer was supposed to equate to "play when you want". Instead it just shifted and condensed the windows for grinding. I don't generally partake. I do my 4 clears over a 4-5 hour period in the evening, and grab a few more in the morning if I've got the time. It's usually good for a T100 place, and I'm fine with that. I can't compete with people who can wake up in the dead of night for 3 hours of a tile matching. If they want it that much, they deserve it more than me.
    Jeez.
    Nobody who t5s PVE is losing sleep or grinding fir 3 hours.
    Pick an end time where you can do an end grind of 1 hour, plus initial grind of an hour.
    Done.
    I'm using Black Bolt for that exactly, but doesn't it bother you to spend 2 hrs on a match-3 game per day, and just to play the same flat 9 nodes repeatedly?
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    keitterman wrote:
    Bowgentle wrote:
    Calnexin wrote:
    keitterman wrote:
    Can we all agree that this is the most stupid, asinine way to rank in a game ever?

    Once could argue that the previous system was slightly more stupid and asinine. Clear once then wait a few hours, clear again, wait, etc.

    The 4-clear-before-timer was supposed to equate to "play when you want". Instead it just shifted and condensed the windows for grinding. I don't generally partake. I do my 4 clears over a 4-5 hour period in the evening, and grab a few more in the morning if I've got the time. It's usually good for a T100 place, and I'm fine with that. I can't compete with people who can wake up in the dead of night for 3 hours of a tile matching. If they want it that much, they deserve it more than me.
    Jeez.
    Nobody who t5s PVE is losing sleep or grinding fir 3 hours.
    Pick an end time where you can do an end grind of 1 hour, plus initial grind of an hour.
    Done.
    I'm using Black Bolt for that exactly, but doesn't it bother you to spend 2 hrs on a match-3 game per day, and just to play the same flat 9 nodes repeatedly?
    No.
    Stockholm syndrome.
    I've been doing this for 1190 days now.

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